fracas

(PTSD?)

About time I learn something new about drugs. ;-) I actually hadn’t heard of this at all … Which really does strike me as odd, considering the number (and types) of people I talk to.

I guess it was a bit much to expect myself to sound like the voice of reason in this.
I’m not trying to defend the use of Salvia by kids, I wish they would leave the stuff alone until they got to an age that they knew better.
All I’m trying to point out is people need a more clever way to approach these things, as opposed to being alarmist.
The alarmist reaction ends up interfering with people being able to get a job or not because they have a criminal record.
And that’s a very large burden for someone that might have been using Salvia responsibly – who gets thrown into the same camp as someone acting irresponsibly.
If my comment seemed “backhanded” then I apologise – it was not my intention. I do not condone the “drugs are harmless if used right” opinion either, but I do not agree that Salvia is a drug if that is the word that is used to describe meth, speed and cocaine.
I disagree that these videos are an effective means to educate people on what their kids are doing when they “go to a friend’s house”. I suggest it’s more about trying to draw attention at any expense, lets face it – competition is fierce, and kids love to be popular, do you really think they are being put there for such a good reason as trying to educate parents over actually trying to impress their friends? Then you need the idiot’s guide to raising teens.
The use of (many, many) substances (amongst other means) to alter brain function for spiritual reasons has been well documented, in fact the initial context that Salvia was being used in was for spiritual reasons. I did not intend to make it sound like three minutes of rapid heart rate equates to a spiritual experience – I was trying to make it evident that most attempts at using Salvia are failed attempts. A successful attempt on the other hand usually results in discouraging any further experimentation, which brings me to the “negative effect of fear, terror and panic” – in this context probably a reaction to complete ego deconstruction – not many people can handle observing the death of their conditioned selves, with ideas of who they thought they were and how they thought reality worked. In a sense even the story of Jesus being crucified could be a metaphor teaching us that deconstruction of the ego is something we should aim for, and therefore spiritual. Certainly it is a fairly common theme in other systems of belief. But hey, if it’s Church on Sunday parading around in your new fancy dress and checking out the abs of that hot young priest that does it for you spiritually then please be my guest.
With regards to health, psychological and mental problems we could enter a lengthy debate. The side I would align with is the one that says education would be just as effective as, or even more effective than, prohibition. Prohibition has not won the war on other, real drugs. Why do you expect it to win suddenly here?
I think you are getting a bit too caught up in watching these videos, do not get so shocked if it’s shock value the kids want. Odds are the Salvia videos will get too boring soon enough and then it will be on to the next big thing that shocks the world, or at least, that shocks your world.

PS: Mark, I did not mean for education to be made the province of a bunch of varsity dropouts from the 1960’s.

Hmmm… Thanks for that. Obviously it shouldn’t be for a bunch of ageist, pedantic Humanities students, either. *flip!* Fracas wrote a blog with the intention to educate. I made a realistic statement given that I’ve traveled the world and watched kids kill themselves on a daily basis because, after being “educated” in their school systems about drugs.

It amazes me that “Don’t blame the drugs, blame the user!” comes out of so many peoples’ mouths, when the same logic is rarely applied to Gun Control, War or Corporate Responsibility.

Being as I am in one of the videos that is posted on this site, I feel I have a few things to say. I guarantee you all I am healthier than most, if not all of you as I work out daily and don’t push fat down my throat. So the whole comment about running around a track for 3 minutes? Lame. I’m not a drug abuser and I also guarantee you that half of the people commenting on this have tried ACTUAL drugs like marijuana cocaine, or smoke regularly, etc etc all of which I do not do. Seeing as most of you commenting are adults and have lived through the 70’s era and know that adolescents do want to experience new things, I don’t understand why you think you are not being hypocritical. I only did Salvia once, was with 3 people to monitor me, I don’t find it spiritual and I definitely wasn’t trying to get high, those are assumptions. I have a 3.8 gpa in college and yes I do care about myself. The reason why they haven’t banned it is because it does NOTHING to you in the long term. I respect you talking about it but it’s the truth. No Salvia is not fun, I don’t want to do it again, but it did make me thankful for what I have and who I am. And no matter how you argue that, it’s the truth.
So while you all parade around about your great parenting skills, swallow this: most parents never know that their kids are drug abusers. And if you think your kids are ever going to tell you, think again wondermom.
Think I should get to an age where I understand better? I’m 20.
So, the facts: I’m not drug addicted, I’m healthy as hell, and chances are I make better grades than most of your kids. The end.

For Jaclyn, should you return. The grades you make in school don’t mean diddly in the long run. Lots of drop outs and low graders are successful adults. It’s not grades that count, it’s ability to make smart decisions that count.

I read a news article about a young teen that died the first time she tried getting high with her good friends there to monitor her. The substance she used doesnt matter. Her good grades didn’t matter anymore, either. She’s dead. The decision she made is what mattered.

I can see your concern as a Mother but I would be more worried about alcohol or nicotine. Let’s use Ecstasy as an example here. 100 Ecstasy deaths a year, only 10 on only Ecstasy. Compare this to 100,000 Alcohol deaths a year or the astounding 0 deaths of Salvia. Yes, 0. Teens aren’t all horrible drug users and I believe experimentation is good for them to have. We need to learn our lessons ourself. I’m a user of salvia and if done safely this is completely harmless. You will always have some idiot that goes and drives, you can’t control that but don’t stereotype…your precious babies will do something sooner or later. Also, I was addicted to both Nicotine and Pain Killers because I took them to cope with the death of my aunt and about 3 close friends being raped (one on the day of my aunts death) and I can tell you that those are much harder to stop than Salvia. Salvia, along with other hallucinogens, are almost never habit forming by their very nature. Only the mentally strong can handle the vivid hallucinations. In response to your reasons for it being outlawed, they can’t do anything until further data is provided because Salvia has a psychoactive Isomer (Salvorin Alpha) and not an Alkaloid (all other hallucinogens) making it LEGAL by US standards and all other countries aside from the Aussies. Go buy some cough syrup, most over the counter cough syrups have DXM in them and will give a similar but much more harmful high. Or how about Morning Glory Seeds which contain a low grade form of LSD known as LSA. Or Meth which will REALLY mess you up..thats all over the counter stuff. You can’t stop drug use, they’ll just go huff paint. So why don’t you buy some Salvia, get a dark room and a sober person, take a couple hits and see if you don’t change your perspective. You’ll live…I promise.

P.S. I know more about drugs than most DEA Agents and for SURE more than our Police not because I’m a druggie (by piss test standards I’m clean) but because I am fascinated by the human mind and the effects drugs have on them in the same way a mechanic is fascinated by an engine or what happens when you drop a turbo in it.

“When anyone who wants to defend the abuse of substances in order to get one’s self “fucked up” for a thrill, sits in the shoes of a parent who can’t sleep because they’re sick with worry that this will be the night they get the call saying their kid is dead and they need to come identify the body…”

fracas, if you honestly worry about your children like this, you are suffering from serious anxiety, neurosis, and possibly depression. You should seek medical attention before it gets out of hand.

Your comment was held as spam. Being that it contained no links and no profanity, there must be some other reason. I chose to post it whereas other bloggers may have simply allowed it to be deleted because I think it’s important to show others how there are indeed, people in the world who have no clue and yet seem to think they are qualified to judge. If you ever sat with someone whose child is on the street, high on meth (or something else) and they can’t do anything about it to save their child, you’d know the statement I made is very real for some parents out there. Your comments show your own ignorance, and that’s about all. I apologize on your behalf… to any parent who may be reading this and feel offended by your statements. -fracas

I agree, laughter rules! For that reason … I’m glad that there’s such a huge supply of asshats who comment on blogs. ;-)

We also kept it (pot) strictly from the kids. When I told them, after they turned twenty-one, that I smoked it, they were both shocked. And neither one of them smokes it now. So,,,,, being a hard-assed hypocrit worked for me. At least in this case.

Negative effects- increased perception (WHAT THE FUCK)

Everyone has their passions.

Fracas, yours appears to be a passion generated by one of your kids becoming a victim of drugs, which I can certainly respect. However, it’s important to keep perspective and realize that all drugs are not inherently “evil”, even although your personal experiences would have you err on the side of safety when making a generalization. I realize the instinctive reaction that kicks in when you have seen your child suffer in the grip of something. I’m a parent too.

Just as you would let your kids have Tylenol when running a fever, there are benefits of some drugs. Some of these drugs are naturally occurring in the plant kingdom.

I think there’s a distinction to be made here between drug use and drug abuse. Many drugs can be used to benefit humankind. Some are used as prescription antidepressants, some as pain killers for chronic or severe pain, some as blood pressure medicine, some as blood thinners. All improve the quality of life, when used as directed. When abused, all these can become something negative.

Salvia isn’t so different from these. I know it’s easy to watch YouTube and think “this is a stupid, irresponsible, pointless exercise in drug abuse”, and I’m in agreement there – 99.9% of YouTube videos on salvia DO illustrate just that. This is the problem when kids have access to something that’s beyond their experience, understanding, appreciation and comprehension. Kids play with matches, but matches are tools in the hands of an adult, and they’re not about to be made illegal. If there were YouTube videos of kids playing with matches, many adults would be enraged, and justifiably so! However, to ban matches altogether wouldn’t be the responsible answer.

So I think you’re right on the money when alerting parents to this plant – parents need to be informed, and they need to know what’s out there. But we don’t need false fears, and we don’t need to be MISinformed. We also don’t need things that are potentially beneficial for adults to be slotted into some generalization for the sake of lack of individual, responsible adult investigation. Getting on the bandwagon based on hearsay or 3rd party information or “what you’ve read” is really poor representation because you haven’t done a full investigation. Adults who have experienced salvia firsthand in a responsible manner, that try to set the record straight, are also labeled as drug users and their arguments are thereby nullified. That’s where this becomes more of an inquisition than a “fair trial” for salvia. And yes, I know there’s still that “err on the side of safety” issue… but let me expand a little on my viewpoint before you cling to that argument.

I’m a 44 year old married father of four, who has tried salvia, and I can personally vouch for not only some valid health benefits (no more work days missed due to nagging migraine headaches, thank goodness!), but for valuable personal insights that have challenged me to become a better person. I don’t use it as a joke, like those YouTube kids – I use it as part of a journey within, and that’s what attracted me to it at this middle (philosophical) age. Incidentally, I’ve never “done” drugs. Never smoked pot. Never wanted to. But salvia attracted me because it held a promise of personal, introspective growth. Soooo many people think this plant is something it’s just NOT. Its nature is not that of something addictive – any “good feelings” come at a very personal cost because it’s a tool to explore the subconscious mind. This is the aspect that scares A LOT of kids to a point that they’ll never try it a second time. They have to confront their fears, and at significant levels of absorption, they are forced to undergo deconstruction of their ego at a time in their development when their ego is maxed out at the center of their lives. This is one of the reasons why it simply doesn’t add up to be a threat to that age group: their psyche will find it to be a threat, not a treat, and they’ll go find something else to do with their time, period. Meanwhile, it may have taught them a lesson in respect, and left them knowing that they’re NOT the know-it-alls that they thought they were. The alternative is, they process what it’s telling them, and they come out of learning something.

Salvia is no more “fun” than going to your shrink and dealing with your most difficult fears or issues. It’s really not something that teenagers would want to play with for anything other than a cursory trial, and the amusement would wear off very quickly. Compound that with the fact that it’s not a “group sport” or “party atmosphere” drug, and you’ve got a pretty poor selling ticket to ride. I’d be more apt to buy stock in the “over 30’s crowd” sales of salvia, when people are looking for a deeper life experience.

Salvia isn’t for kids, I certainly agree. But it has its own self-revealing prophesy to teach them in that respect. It doesn’t need subjective, preconceived judgment by individuals or politicians that apply 3rd party information, and who are quick to generalize it (inappropriately, without first-hand experience) due to passions that are transferred from abuse of other drugs or statistics from other drugs. It’s NOT other drugs, and generalizing with this makes one as guilty as generalizing about anything else in society. This kind of approach is akin to the abused wife who hates all men. Her feelings are valid I grant you, but totally misdirected.

So parents, by all means, be aware. Read VALID information at http://www.sagewisdom.org first, so you’ll be BEST informed. But save your fears for something else. Worry about your daughters getting pregnant, or your sons getting in a car wreck, drunk or street racing. Salvia and its short-lived 5 minute “journeys” are not going to be mainstream ongoing teen fare, by the very nature of the experience.

Mark,

First, I apologize for the long post in response to your short, to the point comment.

Unfortunately, salt isn’t the solution to my migraines. I was told to cut back on salt a number of years ago by my physician due to hereditary high blood pressure, and at that time, I was borderline high. I suppose I could have told him to “go pound salt” (ha!) and give me a prescription for hbp. Or I could try some different prescription drugs now for migraines as well, despite their documented, arguably toxic side effects. Prescription drugs are welcomed by society, but I don’t buy into pharmaceuticals if I’m given ANY legal alternative (for me, these have included chiropractic, massage therapy, homeopathic, herbal/mineral, etc). I do appreciate your attempt to offer a solution to my (now past) migraine problems, but without a cross-section of my medical history, unfortunately you’re at an unfair disadvantage. Your salt comment was well-intentioned though, and I recognize and appreciate that.

I sincerely hope that most people can see the difference between rationalization of something (which suggests it’s fundamentally wrong to begin with) vs. statement of first-hand experiential fact intended to supplement a previously stated viewpoint and enlighten people so that they can base their individual impressions on a broader base of accurate information. I’m not some teen on here stating “wow man it was wicked, salvia is some wild (insert expletive of choice)”. I’m an adult discussing its personal safe use from a parent’s perspective.

You may have already prejudged salvia, just as you may have prejudged me in some way that justifies dismissing my statements without any consideration of their merit in representing the “other side of the coin”. If so, that’s your prerogative, and nothing anyone can say is likely to have you seriously consider other viewpoints on this. I have no problem with that; such is life.

But… for anyone reading this to dismiss any viewpoints that don’t concur with theirs due to the fact that the person has first-hand experience with salvia strongly suggests that this is nothing more than a witch-hunt. If you wanted to find out some facts about ski jumping, wouldn’t you want to talk to someone who has done it? Or would it skew their perspective to the point of rendering it invalid? In fairness, you should really look at the source on an individual basis and decide if it seems credible.

I’m not an addict (well, chocolate and coffee, maybe). I may drink an alcoholic beverage once every three weeks. I don’t smoke tobacco products. I’ve never tried pot, crack, coke, hash, DMT, meth, opium, LSD, huffing, etc. Drugs certainly haven’t “ruined my life”, to this point, I’ve had a longstanding and successful career in (brace yourself) personal safety, and I hold a respectable position. A major part of my work is evaluating and mitigating risk, so I’m not new to assessing the potential for danger or personal injury. In fact, I’m quite qualified in that respect, and see many things that the average person wouldn’t. But I’m also a realist who believes in keeping perspective, NOT “chicken little syndrome”. I receive stupid emails saying “watch for needles in gas pumps” or “mars is going to be as big as the full moon” and I debunk them and send them BACK to the originator with the facts, because I detest people sitting around jumping on the nearest daily bandwagon of ignorance and spreading it like wildfire.

My posting, and the link to http://www.sagewisdom.org was directed to those who are seeking the true facts, not those who had already made up their minds with no room for first-hand experiences or information that represents another viewpoint. Words like “addiction” and “psychedelic” evoke a pretty strong response, and my post was meant to reassure some parents that this plant is not some evil drug that will quickly destroy your children, and that in fact there are much more important and relevant issues to worry about. Salvia shouldn’t be categorized with E, crack, meth, DMT, alcohol, huffing – those are statistically what are putting kids in hospitals or killing them. Salvia simply isn’t. Stats don’t lie. Really! Honest!

Fracas posted some information that was relevant, but there were some some critical facts missing, so it didn’t give parents a totally accurate picture (I understand fracas’ viewpoint has been forged in a pretty high temperature fire, and I TOTALLY respect that). But by having an adult (and parent) post some additional information, it provides a more thorough summary of fact in an otherwise one-sided, and therefore limited, summary. I trust that fact IS of interest here, and I would hope this would be a welcome addition to complement what was originally published. The fact that my posting remains, and was not deleted, attests to this, and I thank you for that, Fracas.

Cast any preconceptions aside for a moment if you can. Making salvia illegal would drive it underground and make it a taboo. Now think like a teenager. Wouldn’t this give it MORE adolescent appeal, adding to the risk, thrill, and attraction? “Hey, they made that stuff illegal, it must be pretty good”. Is that course of action beneficial for something that’s never been documented as being harmful OR proven addictive in ANY way?

The fact remains that someone who wants to try hard drugs is going to pursue that path regardless. Also kids who just want to experiment are GOING to experiment anyway. But anyone who has experienced salvia will tell you it’s not the path to destruction that it’s being made out to be. I’ll certainly grant you that people doing salvia on YouTube look stupid. That’s because they’re doing it in the wrong setting, with the wrong intent. But salvia is statistically FAR safer than huffing. If you had to choose, which is better for experimenting kids to do? Something that causes kidney/liver/lung/brain damage or death, or something that’s never been shown to cause any of these problems? If you make one illegal, they’ll likely just use the other, which has significant documented health risks. Is that the direction you’d prefer for this to go?

Inarguable Fact: You aren’t solving a problem if you’re ultimately rerouting those “at risk” to an alternative with higher risk factors. Taking away salvia or making it illegal won’t take away the curiosity. Pretending it will suggests “ostrich syndrome”.

Think. For yourself. Research the facts, not the opinion of those who are unqualified to comment about salvia because they have no ACTUAL experience with this specific substance.

Oh, and by the way, Mars is NOT going to be as big as the full moon. And I’d know.

galileo

I’m going to “pass” on the crutch thing, in the interest of keeping this short. Suffice to say that your “occasional enjoyment of alcohol” is the same – it’s a drug that you ingest for a reason; and it has its chemical effects on your consciousness.

AND… although my viewpoint involves risk, it involves LESS risk than the alternatives which will inevitably still be on the menu even if salvia is somehow removed. Your risk-mitigation argument seems to be based on the assumption that if salvia disappears from view, so will any desire to experiment. Human (particularly teen) nature has proven time and time again that this is a flawed assumption. They will seek the same end through a different means, with a higher risk factor. I’m not saying “it’s ok for teens to experiment, everybody go try it”, I’m saying “if you MUST pursue these kinds of things, then make educated decisions and choose wisely”. Salvia is certainly NOT for everyone. But the “taboo to admit they might” parental denial and avoidance mindset does NOTHING to educate young people about the facts and making informed decisions, and it just hurts them in the long run. If you tell them “don’t”, they probably will. If you tell them “if you do, here are the possible outcomes you need to be aware of”, you empower them and teach them how to make decisions for themselves responsibly.

galileo

Fracas,

Your personal viewpoint is shared by many politicians. Many facts based on personal experience won’t agree with your opinion, nor will they support your cause. However, it’s easy to render such information invalid simply by labeling someone a “user” or “addict”, “trying to justify their own choices to use drugs”. This same approach has been used effectively through history during plenty of inquisitions (the fact-negating premise was changed – “they’re in league with the devil” – but it’s certainly the same principle).

Unfortunately, you have missed an opportunity to glean first-hand, accurate information from someone who could have answered some of your questions and provided some meaningful insights and truths on this topic.

At least I’m not forced to recant. I’ll give you that.

galileo

Oh..and just wait and see what a glutton for punishment I am. I’ve been working on another drug topic to post shortly.

I can’t wait to see who’ll stop by to tell me I need to learn from them too.

Rotflmaopmpaktd. (I’m too lazy to type that out)

Mark.. where are you? You’d enjoy this one too. Every time someone comes along who can’t convince me to see the “error of my ways” they end up at some point, putting on their “Psych 101″ hat and telling me how they finally “understand where I’m coming from” and then proceed to tell me why I have the opinions I do.

In fact, I do appreciate, enjoy and love my Country. I just happen to be a realist about whether or not any one place on earth is “perfect” or makes “all” the right decisions.

It doesn’t happen. Every country has made good choices… and bad. If I point out a bad one, it doesn’t mean I don’t recognize or appreciate the good ones, or that I have any deep seated resentment towards my country. If I did, I wouldn’t continue to live in it. In fact, while my fellow residents of Saskatchewan often carry on about why it sucks to live here, I will argue the opposite. Yes, I piss and moan about things I don’t like that happen in my province too… and yet I choose to stay in it because I can see the good things too.

Unfortunately, you, galileo, are obviously not able to understand that concept, the concept that one can love where they are… and yet see the things that aren’t so lovely at the same time. Were I not able to do that, I’d be no better than the idiot who glosses over anything negative and lives with rose colored glasses on ’round the clock. That’s just not a healthy way to live. Life is full of good and bad and everything is a balance. It’s unfortunate that you can’t see anything past your desire to defend your choice to use drugs, but since you didn’t understand the reference to Sharpe, I’ll explain it.

You held up a decision made by a part of Canadian Government as the right thing to follow, as if the Government never makes mistakes. The point of mentioning Sharpe, was to illustrate how Governments don’t always make the best choices. So… while it’s certainly a person’s individual perogative to believe the Government’s decision on any matter is the correct one, it is in fact, never the definitive and wise people don’t live by a “the Government said it so it must be truth and irreversible” stand. If we did so, we’d still think it acceptable to forcibly sterilize individuals who used to be called “retarded” and women would still be unable to vote. Your choice to turn the conversation around to once again, serve your obvious “I must defend the use of this drug at all costs” stand is just plain silly. I believe anyone of reasonable intelligence would have understood the point I was making. I don’t say that to insist that you are of limited intelligence, because clearly you are not. I say that to show you how your own “I must defend the use of this drug at all costs” stand is causing you to appear to be of limited intelligence. It is your choice to appear that way at your own expense. I’m really puzzled as to why the use of this drug is worth that much to you but have to say that I’ve seen this before… in lots of teens who will forego the same in order to justify getting high on whatever their drug of choice is.

You must understand by now that you can neither convince me of the “error” of my thinking, nor intimidate me with insults. And yet you keep trying.

Perhaps another individual out there who thinks they’re all “Psych 101″ as well, might like to comment on that.

Then again… maybe if I would just go get high I’d change my mind and see how smart you really are.

(That one… for you Mark, because I am in the end, always a smart ass.)

Besides … full-of-shit people bore me. I’ve been dealing with too many of them lately.

Fracas,

You have some very valid points when it comes to negative stigma associated with mental illness. It’s unfortunate in a society that’s as “progressive” as ours, that this still prevails to such a degree.

“Please provide absolute proof that Salvia use will never trigger mental illness of any kind that could ruin a person’s life, or take a hike.”

Rather than argue semantics (there is a difference between triggering mental illness, and triggering an EPISODE or SYMPTOMATIC MANIFESTATION of a previously existing, although possibly latent condition), I think the thrust of what you’re saying is (I know this puts me at risk of being accused of putting words in your mouth, but my purpose is to clarify intent):

“Can you refute that salvia can complicate someone’s mental state to the point of substantial difficulty (or worse) in the case of someone who’s mentally unstable or who has a latent mental or psychological problem?” And if so, why should we permit our kids continued access to a substance that poses this risk?

The answer the first part is undoubtedly, no I can’t refute this. It is the NATURE of psychoactive substances BY DEFINITION to impact the human psyche. Technically, it doesn’t “create” problems, it merely reveals them. It’s like removing the gift-wrap from a present, and discovering a box. Removing the wrapping didn’t create the box, it was already there. Thus the term “latent” in your quote from Erowid.

You’ve already alluded to this several times – underlying issues, family history, etc. This can be thought of as analogous to giving an alcoholic a drink, or giving an arsonist matches – these are simply a bad combination. Yet these things can be completely harmless in the hands of someone else who doesn’t have the vulnerability. Do we ban alcohol or matches? No, we don’t. It’s the right of the individual to choose to use these, and parents’ responsibility to protect their children’s against dangerous interactions or involvement. In other words, we don’t ban them, we just don’t let kids play with them. I believe the same should be done with salvia.

I would suggest that making it illegal to sell to or provide salvia to MINORS would protect our youth as much as, or possibly more than – criminalizing it carte blanc, for the following reasons:

Criminalizing something like this doesn’t make it disappear, as I’m sure you’re well aware. For young people, it validates the alleged potency of the substance and its pursuit, creates the additional thrill of doing something “bad”, increases demand for availability by forcing it underground, and as a result, reinforces the fallback position: a criminal subculture that fills the void and caters to this demand.

Again, I recognize that you raise some excellent points with respect to stigma associated with mental history. Also, I think we all need to recognize that there are some clues in everyone’s own life that can point to potential “latent” problems. A “family history” doesn’t mean that because Aunt Martha is on antidepressants, salvia will give you a mental breakdown by default.

Individuals who have schizophrenic, psychotic, substantially neurotic, or even generally paranoid tendencies should definitely stay away. Those who have a difficult time separating fantasy from reality should likewise steer clear. For example, those who immerse themselves in role playing to the point of obsession or identifying their “self” with a character – this would raise a flag of caution. If there is a prevalent family history of any of the above… yes, all psychoactive substances should be avoided because they’re… yep, that’s it… psychoactive. AGE IS A MAJOR FACTOR because (as you alluded to) of associated stages of hormonal and psychological development.

Incidentally, for the record, the “greater good” I referred to was DUE PROCESS, NOT salvia use itself. I believe this is clear if you read my last couple of postings fully.

I think this got pretty far off the beaten path because you and I both got sidetracked on mutually exclusive opinions, instead of seeking the common ground. For my part in that, please accept my apologies.

Ultimately Fracas, I AM in agreement with your underlying premise – our kids could use some protection, they shouldn’t be using salvia. How this control is delivered though, that’s up for opinion. Carte blanc? Across-the-board scheduling? I think that would only make matters worse, and it would impact a much broader base than the kids that you’re professing that you want to see protected. Is THAT really necessary? Or can the desired results be achieved without going to an extreme?

galileo

Yep…..here’s a case of another soccer mom who thinks she’s a doctor, scientist and neuropharmacologist.

Salvinorin a is the first Kappa opiate receptor drug in the world found naturally occurring in a plant. It may have properties that could obliterate an addiction to opiates, and seems to have better efficacy as an anti-depressant than any similar on the market today, without any of the dangers of such drugs. Check out the work they are doing on this drug at Case Western Reserve University. They are actually Doctors that have an opinion about its use.

If the DEA classifies this drug researchers will no longer have access to it. This is a damn shame – since this would be a result of some lazy parents not being able to control their kids, and want to blame someone else for their bad parenting.

Why dont you educate yourself on the properties of the drug & explain to your kids that this is an non-standardized dissociative drug that probably will not be any fun for them to try.

In the future lets scientist determine which drugs may be benificial to you rather than Youtube and teenagers making the decision for you.

We finally discover wise up and discover a useful drug with no dangerous side effects, when administered properly by observing centuries of native american medicine, and we lose the ability to experiment with it because some dumb kids mom saw a video on the internet.

We could keep taking vioxx if you prefer…matter of fact why dont you put your kids on a ADHD drug right now just to make sure they dont learn anything until they are 21…..

Dr. Charles Berry

Why do you have such unrealistic views on drugs? You make a case by saying that no one should be using drugs due to the risks they pose. Yes, they pose risks (some more than others). What doesn’t? This is life, we are confronted with risks every day. People die every day in car accidents. Should cars be outlawed? I sure as hell hope not.

Your perception is that drugs are bad, bad, bad, and there’s no two ways about it. Oversimplifying things is easy, isn’t it?

I’ve used assorted drugs throughout my life (including salvia). While I am not a huge fan of salvia, I do believe it has some incredible potentional for some people. And I know what you’ll say. “Oh, but that’s just the drug putting things in your head. It’s a fake experience. blah, blah, blah.” Well, Mrs. know-everything-before-trying-it, have you ever considered that maybe these things ARE in our head, and by temporary altering our mindset these things become accesible? No, of course you haven’t. DRUGS ARE EVIL.

Keep living in that bubble.

For the record, I completely respect people who don’t feel the need to indulge in drugs. However, I do not in any way respect people that look down upon those that do and spread biased perspectives.

I was with you fracas, until you said this:

“My goal is to protect kids from themselves (and help other adults do so as well) until kids are able to do that for themselves. They think they can, but life suggests otherwise.”

In our neck of the woods, the sooner a kid learns he better be careful, or he’ll get hurt, the better. The government trying to “protect us from ourselves” leads to a nanny state I don’t want.

To sum up the “facts” of the above discussion:

fracas says salvia is bad, can cause extreme problems for those with even minor mental conditions, and that parents should know of it, and include it in their parenting.

Galilio says it’s not addictive.

Based on the facts, I’d call this one a draw

well, i just smoked salvia, i didnt freak out, i didnt get scared, yell, or anything. its different in every person, and its legal. the United nations says its legal. also why are you compareing salvia with uppsers, such as meth, speed and coke. both drugs do 2 totally different things, and last i checked our teens are smoking pot, nothing wrong with that, at all. i say, do alittle more research please, before fasley compareing salvia (A LEGAL DRUG) with very dangerous drugs, such as meth. also, no one is stupid enough to drive a car, or do it alone, we all know what it does, we all do it responsibally (aside from the idiots who make Youtube videos)

I just think it’s kind of pathetic, that as a resource, Fracas has posted some information that parents might not know, and some asshat comes along acting like she’s trying to enact friggin’ legislation and get the drug banned and is telling everyone what to do…

I swear, it seems like about two people might’ve actually “read” the post. I’m clearly not a fence-sitter when it comes to people being self-absorbed, illiterate ‘tards. I mean, I make “Asshat of the Day” posts for a reason. ;-)

In New Zealand a few years ago, stupid kids were dying nearly every day from huffing Raid — yeah, the bug spray. If her post had been about that, there would’ve been no argument…

so what…. your saying that salvia divinorum is dangerous…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH wow your funny, and now what, your gonna send videos and say complete bullshit on salvia almost like weed started to get illegal, u think weed is bad, pfft fuck no, its the goverment that bullshits u inot beliveing that , weed is bad, lmao, like look at the first movie that they made about weed “Reefer madness” haha u seriously believe that bullshit “your first joint will make u go crazy and jump off a cliff cuz u think u can fly” i mean seriously, if u thought u can fly, why not fly from where standing HAHA u wouldnt jump off a fucking cliff for god sakes, now think again before saying salvia is bad , fuck if it was that BAD, it wouldnt be legal now would it, deaths for weed and salvia …. 0, deaths for alchool and tobbaco……….. infinite and it will never stop.

Lol i love how your going on about salvia and driving first of all nio ones gonna do salvia in an ally or without being surrounded by good freinds. explain to me how someone is going to manage to get into a car on salvia A)it needs to be smoked in a bong or pie
B) your basiclly immobilized
C)driving is the last thing anyone would think off when your falling inside your own body surrounded by lego faces…try it then bash it. it would help your argument

You Americans just can’t but help show your stupidity.

Hmm. You’re a little too vague, and since you neither posted a link to a site, and your email address was also fake, it’s not likely we’ll ever know if you were referring to me (since my comment was last) or the vast array of people who have arrived at this post and stopped long enough to post stupidity. I’m not sure how you know they’re all American though. I for one, know that I’m not an American. Don’t you think that to show up and without knowing whether the people you think are stupid are actually Americans or not, to label them such is a little… shall we say… stupid? Ironic, eh? – Fracas

be sure to check sites like salviamap.com to see if salvia divinorum is legal or not before you purchase it!

[Sorry evan, but my posts aren't exactly pro-salvia, so perhaps you should check out the links you find before just leaving a link to your commercial site... if I wasn't such a nice person, I'd redirect people to something nasty in your name as your reward for being such a dufus. -fracas]